Working With guitar and lunchbox Pres

[drycapguy]

What a some teniques in recording gutar through lunchbox pres. For example how do you use gain and trim. Do you record clean and re-amp. Can you re-amp a line level input using minimal gain and some trim for instance. Is it better to use a x-amp and re-DI.
If all of the can be done then what works best for you ?

:confused:

[Denyle]

I'd like to hear what others do as well. I'm boring when it comes to recording guitars. I put mic to amp and go with it. Usually I use a vp26, pad in although other preamps are not out of the question. If I feel inspired, I might run through a MW-1 first, and get both DI & amp tracks.

If you're wondering about lunchbox preamps compared to other formats, the same goes for any of them. As for the preamps with DI's, I prefer active DI's for guitars. Buzz Elixir, Great River MP-500NV both have great ones. The CAPI 312DI should be very promising as well.

[mikekeith]

What a some teniques in recording gutar through lunchbox pres. For example how do you use gain and trim. Do you record clean and re-amp. Can you re-amp a line level input using minimal gain and some trim for instance. Is it better to use a x-amp and re-DI.
If all of the can be done then what works best for you ?

:confused:

I designed a DI pre amp just for the Gtr/Bass..JM-120
Works great and a perfect signal for Reamping..

[pan60]

i don't do guitar that way for the most part, but at times i have. i have the Great River MP-500NV and a LaChapell 583s both have HI-Z inputs that i will us if needed.
i also use one of Ben Mooktronics PDI 500 DIs which i love: )~
i try to go for the sound i think i want, sometimes clean sometimes not.
if i am doing a amp that is nasty with distortion i often will want something a bit clean just incase i have to redo what the guitarist thought was needed, and i i am doing spanking clean, i might want some to set the DI for a bit of grit.

like i say, not something i do much, but some thoughts.

Mike, i need to try one of you boxs next time i get some extra scratch saved : )~

[drycapguy]

If a clean signal was recorded, would I have to covert back to guitar level signal with something like a Radial X-Amp first or could the signal be "re-amped" for a line level input. I see that some people are using banks of pre's as summing boxes and this indicates that I could re-amp the signal directly from a line level input. I realize using a different technique might result in a different sound but I kinda want to know what my options are and I don't want to fry my equipment ;)

[pan60]

like i say not something i do much but i think something like the Radial X-Amp would be a good choice, never used one.
i would like to hear more about what Mike has set up?

[drycapguy]

I am likely to go the route Mike uses and record a clean signal along with what I think I want at the time. Since I am not a guitarist I would have to pull one back in to replay a track. Sometime you think something is going to mix in well with the other tracks and it either cuts through too much or not enough for instance. Maybe as I gain more experience I will not need the safe rout. I do have the Radial J48 DI and X-amp. I have only cut a few songs to date but the DI has worked well for me on bass and guitar so far. I do find it nice to blend a few different guitar sounds together so re-amping makes sense to me.

[mikekeith]

Depends on many things but one set up I have used several times is:
For Gtr Overdubs; I had the Gtr player in the the CTR, ran his Gtr into his pedal board> DI Pre>Compressor> Mult to one track, 2nd track (Mult)into studio>Reamp box>Gtr amp..
This may sound like overkill BUT worked/sounded great...
One thing it put the Gtr player in the CTR where he could hear his amp IN THE MIX..No phones..

You can omit the so called "Dry" track because in the above its not really dry...
So you can just have the one track, its 99.9% of the players rig, I add the extra compressor (after DI Pre) to keep the signal even, sounds better IMHO..plus it sounds like a record...IMHO..

[danetate]

If a clean signal was recorded, would I have to covert back to guitar level signal with something like a Radial X-Amp first or could the signal be "re-amped" for a line level input.

You can certainly try anything you like. The great thing about recording is there are very few rules. When I have reamped something, I'm wanting a trashy sound, so I'll just plug a line level (a low level one, granted) into the amp and see what it does.

If you can record a kick drum with a speaker cone, you can do anything you want. :)

[Stephent28]

Best thing I ever did in the DI arena was to get a A-Designs REDDI!

[pan60]

everyone just raves about the to A-Designs REDDI, i am going to have to get one someday: )~

i almost got one last year, but ended up with another 500 format pre. :eek:

[danetate]

There has been quite a heated discussion about the pros and cons of 500-series things on gearslutz. Some people seem to have a hard time understanding the benefits.

[LunchBoxHero]

After recording, I open the file in Peak and mix to mono (around 5% less DI than mic)

wow roger, nice setup and good ideas there. I love combining various esoteric sources, multi-cabs, and in the past used an old altec piece (that i sadly sold) in what sounds like the same way you are using the ampex line amp. I forget what it was I think it was a compressor that also had a line in with its own level. the compressor did not - work the piece had been in a fire - but the line amp still did, and had some serious mojo and nice harmonic distortion if you drove it. Interesting to see the AKG D112 in there, I am big fan of my old D12 on guitars, in fact did some today. :)

Anyway, regarding the quote above, I am curious why you combine the tracks in peak rather then just keeping the options open and mixing down in what i presume is a DAW environment? Is it the "commit to a sound thing?".

The "IP" sounds like a seriously cool audio tool in the works!

James

[pan60]

There has been quite a heated discussion about the pros and cons of 500-series things on gearslutz. Some people seem to have a hard time understanding the benefits.

also remember their are some who interests are better severed in other directions.
:eek:

[drycapguy]

Yeah I though about it long and hard. It didn't make a lot of sense to me to get an expesive console or a pre with a large number of identical channels. My thinking is that a good pair of clean pres for overheads, acoustic instruments and possibly some classical stereo recording. Then I want a color pallet. I was at a point that I needed to get some better pres and I found that I was going to want a collection of them. I think once you realize that It's a no brainer. I also seen the need for the EQ and Compressors as I am currently using plug-ins and although they way I am not completely satisfied with their sound.

[danetate]

also remember their are some who interests are better severed in other directions.
:eek:

Yes, Pan, for sure. Some people insist on using up 3 rack spaces with an authentic LA-2a whereas the LA-610 puts it in the equivalent of 1RU, and that is fine because there isn't any rack police. It's just sort of amusing how certain folks get bent out of shape over personal preferences.

[mikekeith]

Yes, Pan, for sure. Some people insist on using up 3 rack spaces with an authentic LA-2a whereas the LA-610 puts it in the equivalent of 1RU, and that is fine because there isn't any rack police. It's just sort of amusing how certain folks get bent out of shape over personal preferences.

Well, you do realize it is NOT the same compressor...
Read the specs very carefully, LA-2 TYPE...Uses the TB4
Do you think they would sell the SAME all tube/transformer circuit PLUS a mic pre for $1600.00 compared to $3000.00 for the LA-2A??

[mikekeith]

James,
I was mixing the 2 tracks outboard and ITB to compare and then I tried the "Stereo to Mono" in Peak. Much better. Don't know why.

Don't know about the gearslutz discussion but I do have opinions about the 500 format, mainly that you can't fit transformers that are flat down to near DC...Period. OK, you might be able to fit a transformer alone if you can find one that is less than 1.4" wide, but no room for anything else. So if there is any advantage to rack gear, I think it will be this alone. As I said before, ELF response is important sometimes, other times, nah.

For an example look up a Western Electric repeat coil on ebay... Huge!
Flat to DC (almost). Or the output transformers in the 351 amp.

Transformerless is another story. There, the 500 format is right up there with anything running on bipolar +/- 15 to +/- 16V rails, no difference.

Some claim +30dBu output capabilities which is natively impossible. But it is possible with step up transformer wirings, but at what cost? I haven't studied the penalty for step up at that level, which is around 6dB higher than +/-16 can swing.

Here, rack gear rules. With +/-18V to +/-24V rails.

My studio is set up that the last LED on my pair of Dorrough meters is +30dBu.
Do I need +30? No, it's just that my Benchmark DA I use for playback puts out +29dBu maximum.

I feed that signal through processors powered at +/-16V all the time and even though their clipping points are +26 dBu or so, I never hear any detrimental effects. Most recorded stuff falls below +26 dBu anyway...

There are many high pres and line amps that use a Step up trans..I do, and a GOOD one...
The down size is IF it sees a 600 ohm load the primary WILL see lower..
A good OP amp like the 990 has NO problem driving a 150 ohm load..
I like the step up for several good reasons..

[mikekeith]

One I use is the Jensen JT-123-AL -3dB @ .8Hz & 290KHz..so pretty good..

[mikekeith]

50/50, right?

That spec is very good. Wonder how it would relate to a sweep not using the HP freq synth... As in fuction generator and analog meter, I'll have to give that a shot when I get the bench clear.

One "real world" test I did was with what is claimed as the top transformer, the Lundahl LL7902. It was wired 1:1 and still seemed to thin out the ELF just like the Profile 404 (yeah, I know crap but still) and also the Cinemag CMOQ2-S... Spec on the LL7902 said otherwise.

Not really second guessing Jensen specs, just wondering how those specs relate to the real world.

Roger

Real world?
Have tested Jensen's many times over the years, I trust their specs 100%..

[danetate]

Well, you do realize it is NOT the same compressor...
Read the specs very carefully, LA-2 TYPE...Uses the TB4
Do you think they would sell the SAME all tube/transformer circuit PLUS a mic pre for $1600.00 compared to $3000.00 for the LA-2A??

Yes, point taken. I'll not argue there. However, as I understand it, the largest part of the cost difference is the fact that the LA-2A is hand wired point to point, the big chassis with the front lid, etc., whereas the LA-610 is modernized construction with a PC board and so forth.

The fact is these choices are good because some are willing to pay the price and the rack space for the authentic thing, and it's good that it is available, just like it is good that the 500-series is available for those of us who want it.

[pan60]

you guys are far more educated then i am, but i ( as much as i love the 500 format ) do not feel everything needs to be put in the 500 format.
i do however feel more modern manufacturing has made size less of a issue i a lot of aspects.
for example, looking at some of the new surface mount stuff ( which still make me nervous ), it would seem one could do about anything. power of corse being a restriction.

as for transformer, size can be a limitation, but i do not have to based on the info i have be given.
and based on what i have here i do not believe it is, but i am not doing as some are and testing every small detail, nor do a i care, leave that to yo guys: )~

i would like to see a LA2 TYPE comp in the 500 format if doable?
and i don't think it has to be a clone by any means, just a great optical comp with the feature we expect from the LA-2?

[Wireline]

At the risk of igniting a nerdgasm, I always try to remember that specs are worthless when it comes to guitar tones. The magic comes from the player's hands...

hat said - my starting point for most clean stuff is ADesigns P1/Ashly SC50 comp/console EQ... the gritty stuff usually runs console pre/Ashly comp/console eq...

if the player has his ducks lined up, it's easy..

[pan60]

i have been wanting one of those Ashly SC50 comps, just never seem to get one.

i have not tried Mikes but that Pico that Roger had out ( as well as others ), was very nice!

to me guitar tone is the player but it is also the amp.
am a freak for small amps.
Jule just finished one for me he's been working on for a few years now, and he hit the nail on the head with this bad boy: )~

i will chat about this in another thread.
Wireline this will make you drool so get a towel!

[danetate]

Sweet. That's not a lunchbox...that's a mailbox. Although my grandpa had a lunchbox that looked like that.

[Wireline]

Wireline this will make you drool so get a towel!

Yea, man...I've got a one-off here that's a Champ clone...one knob, 3 tubes (12AX7 pre, 5AR4 driver, 6V6 power)...covered in snakeskin.

run it wide open for 7 watts...:D

Pics coming this week sometime.

[mikekeith]

Yes, point taken. I'll not argue there. However, as I understand it, the largest part of the cost difference is the fact that the LA-2A is hand wired point to point, the big chassis with the front lid, etc., whereas the LA-610 is modernized construction with a PC board and so forth.

The fact is these choices are good because some are willing to pay the price and the rack space for the authentic thing, and it's good that it is available, just like it is good that the 500-series is available for those of us who want it.

I see larger transformers and a different supply..No doubt the chassis with a hinged lid adds $$, and hard wired adds $$, I hard wire my mic pre as well...
IM saying it is NOT the same compressor, and UA is NOT saying it is either...

[mikekeith]

What I love about transformers vs electronic balanced is it has NO problem driving an Unbalanced input, something the electronic balanced can NOT do very well..You get what you pay for...

As far as Mic pre the JT-16 is the best mic input trans I know of, that why I use it...
Have not seen a Transless pre come close to the CMRR of the JT-16..117dB @60Hz...
Love um...

[mikekeith]

Another round of more controlled tests.

Test at 4Hz with secondaries loaded @ 600R. The results are maximum level before the secondary waveform gets "non sinusoidal":

JT-11-ELCF +8.5dB
Edcor WSM600 +9dB
Edcor XSM600 +12dB
Cinemag CMOQ-2S +12dB (API 312 Output)
Carnhill VTB2281 +18dB (FCS P4DMS Output)

Test conditions:
Krohn Hite function generator> 2520 Line amp (zero R output)> Transformer Primary

Transformer Secondary>600R>Scope+HP 400FL AC level meter

One thing I found interesting is that the Jensen JT-11-ELCF has a published spec of -1dB@1Hz.... Doesn't even come close to the bench tests.

We used the Cinemag CMOQ-2S for a short time in our stereo compressors and an engineer friend observed a thinning of the extra low frequencies so he removed them in favor of electronic balancing.
These findings revealed the mechanism behind his observation.

So, in this test, bigger core equals better LF response.

Well, back to assembly work for me, break's over!

Wow, flawed test...
I did it and was within Jensen's specs...
Then don't use a Transformer...You are obviously trying to prove something...
Are you using a chip for the output? Most can't drive a 600 ohm load very well anyway...
Back to better gear design..

[mikekeith]

Another round of more controlled tests.

Test at 4Hz with secondaries loaded @ 600R. The results are maximum level before the secondary waveform gets "non sinusoidal":

JT-11-ELCF +8.5dB
Edcor WSM600 +9dB
Edcor XSM600 +12dB
Cinemag CMOQ-2S +12dB (API 312 Output)
Carnhill VTB2281 +18dB (FCS P4DMS Output)

Test conditions:
Krohn Hite function generator> 2520 Line amp (zero R output)> Transformer Primary

Transformer Secondary>600R>Scope+HP 400FL AC level meter

One thing I found interesting is that the Jensen JT-11-ELCF has a published spec of -1dB@1Hz.... Doesn't even come close to the bench tests.

We used the Cinemag CMOQ-2S for a short time in our stereo compressors and an engineer friend observed a thinning of the extra low frequencies so he removed them in favor of electronic balancing.
These findings revealed the mechanism behind his observation.

So, in this test, bigger core equals better LF response.

Well, back to assembly work for me, break's over!

Wow you have GOT to be kidding, so what mic will go below 20Hz, what size caps are you using?
My pre is flat below 10Hz...

[juledude]

Thanks for the kind words.

Real close to getting these out the door for the rest of the folks. Just had a great time in Paradise Recording with Ronny Watson doing some testing. A video will be out very soon to give folks some idea of what the Paycheck will do.

Unfortunately neither Ronny or I are particularly shy. :)


i have been wanting one of those Ashly SC50 comps, just never seem to get one.

i have not tried Mikes but that Pico that Roger had out ( as well as others ), was very nice!

to me guitar tone is the player but it is also the amp.
am a freak for small amps.
Jule just finished one for me he's been working on for a few years now, and he hit the nail on the head with this bad boy: )~

i will chat about this in another thread.
Wireline this will make you drool so get a towel!

[danetate]

If you overdrive a Paycheck is that like hitting paydirt? :) I like that name btw.

[raf]

Wow you have GOT to be kidding, so what mic will go below 20Hz, what size caps are you using?
My pre is flat below 10Hz...


Why the snideness?

I told you I was not talking about mic amps... I was talking about line level gear. I WAS NOT USING A MIC, but a Krohn Hite 1400A Linear Sweep Generator, a HP 400FL level meter and a Leader dual trace scope.

But never mind, I don't think people here want to hear any of this kind of testing... Sorry for wasting your and my time!

Cheers!

[juledude]

I'm definitely going to steal this idea if you don't mind. "Paydirt."

I'm hoping the audio we gathered testing the Paycheck will be appropriate for this forum. All of it recorded through a Shiny Box Ribbon -> Burl Audio B1 Pre -> Burl Audio B2 ADC. I'll have links to it soon. We're in the process of getting the video edited right now.


If you overdrive a Paycheck is that like hitting paydirt? :) I like that name btw.

[danetate]

I'm definitely going to steal this idea if you don't mind. "Paydirt."

Absolutely. The Paydirt knob.

[ajwells]

Somehow I thought if you overdrove your paycheck, it was an overdraught.

Not that I would know anything about that kind of a process.

[danetate]

Somehow I thought if you overdrove your paycheck, it was an overdraught.

OK Jule, you gotta have an Overdraught control too.

[ajwells]

It's just sort of amusing how certain folks get bent out of shape over personal preferences.

OK, I was going to try to stay out of this, but I find it interesting how this thread has diverged from a discussion about how to record guitars and the techniques used to do so, to a session where one person slags on everyone for everything.

I'm a n00b to this forum, and I was hoping to get familiar with what others had to say about topics, but when the thread is monopolized by one person who seems to have no respect for other's opinions, it makes me wonder, just WTF am I doing here.

I'm sure I've opened myself up for slagging, but so be it. I'd rather hear differences of opinions than one person who continually crows about his line of equipment and how stupid the rest of us lot are.

And Mr. Moderator, sorry if I've violated any of the rules here. If you need to delete this post, or delete me, I completely understand. But I think this had to be said.

[drycapguy]

As original poster I was wondering a bit myself. But reading between the lines. Some of the overly technical issues may have some impact on future purchase I may make. Definitly I want a paydirt knob or paydirt audio series 500 compressor or preamp.

[ajwells]

Some of the overly technical issues may have some impact on future purchase I may make.

Exactly. I'm interested in the technical discussions and opinions posted here. Problem is, if people are getting run off, or getting discouraged from posting, then we've lost a valuable resource. We should all learn from each other.

I'll shut up now.

[pan60]

no issues with others opinions.

but lets not make this into what we see on every other forum.

i have my views and opinions and i know my way is the only correct way but i love hearing about what others are thinking: )~

please be nice guys lets let keep this as cordial as possible. :D

i talk to a very large number of engineers and views very from one end of the spectrum to the other. and often their are reasons for decision that may or may not not prove to be relevant to others.

be cool please!!

[Lunchbox Audio]

I realize this is an old post, but there's some really cool routing options for guitar tracking with the new Radial Workhorse that may be of interest to you drycapguy. In particular you can take a dry signal in, feed that to a recorder and an X-Amp, take that to 2 amps, record those with a mic, while also feeding from one of the amp heads to the JDX, record that separately and use the Phazer to make sure the mics are aligned, while sending some of the signal through the EXTC to add various footpedal effects in some fashion all at once...YEAHHhhhh!