Let's show some vision

[tubemooley]

I'm not sure how this is going to pan out but I'm going to throw it out there anyways. I can tell from the forum members that there are several real 500-series designers out there. So here goes..... The 500-series modules are a great idea. But the format has some limitations, namely space. I am very reluctant to purchase a 500-series module for 750 to 1000 dollars if it isn't "everything it could be" just because it got jammed into a 500-series module. I would rather save my money and wait to purchase a full-size 1U or 2U box with all the circuit features it needs. OK.... Mic pre's..... Yes, a mic pre can be done in a 500-series module. Any of the pre's which us higher-end users would want can be fit into a 500-series module. But even Dan Kennedy refused to jam his NV pre into a 1-space module and went with 2-spaces instead. I applaud him for this. He didn't want to compromise the audio quality of his design by trying to jam it into 1-space (I have an MP-500NV). The same comment applies to Tim Farrant's Essence and Potion modules. But what about the up-and-coming Pendulum OCL-500? And the AnaMod 660? No, I have not heard these modules. I would like to see the guts of the AM660 to see what's in there. If they have some new, proprietary circuitry in there, that's great. I ain't gonna' steal it. But I don't buy one thousand dollar modules without seeing the entire module, getting a very decent circuit description from the designer and listening to it. I don't have spare thousand dollar bills sitting around that I can afford to piss away. I need to know beforehand what I'm purchasing. OK..... Moving on..... Even Andrew's new Bust modules are not 500-series compatible. Not entirely. You have to buy his rack to use them. This is fine. If that's how he designed it and that is how it works, then that's how I would purchase it. But as far as I can tell, the Bust module is NOT yer regular 500-series module and won't work (certainly not as expected) in just any 500-series rack. So, yeah, the 500-series is great but for the most part they are individual modules which just happen to sit in the same rack box. If we can "assemble" the important parts of a studio into one or two 500-series racks, that's great. But a rack like this is not a complete studio. Where are the Aux sends and the returns and the bussing? Oh right.... There isn't any. Well, not much (JLM's internal buss connections; Purple's Moiyn, etc.). Now we're talking Tonelux or Inward Tree. I would die to have a fully-populated Tree. But it ain't gonna' happen in my lifetime. So maybe here is my point.... I love most of the 500-series modules. I only own about five of them at this point. Money is tight these days and other items are taking priority in our studio. I do electrical engineering at my dayjob so I know what's involved with getting a design to the market. It's not easy. I guess if anyone can release their own 500-series module, that's cool. But where does that leave the entire 500-series community? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm expecting too much from this format. Anyways, the amount and quality of gear available to us sluts these days here in 2008 is incredible. But 80% of that gear available today will be completely gonzo and forgotten five years from now. In the high-end pro audio arena, tits and glitz doesn't get you anywhere. But a solid design that sounds incredible will still be in production ten years from now. Does any of this make any sense at all? DW.

[pan60]

their dose in no way have to be a compromise in quality ti be in the 500 format.
Dan did choose not to do his pre in two space as he wanted the 500 format MP-500NV to be the same pre.
he could have designed a totally new pre, he choose not to.
as far as the 500 format goes i say pres, eqs, comp, and possibly some effects would be fine and fall in the format amazingly well.
features such as auxs, bussing, and faders in noway need to be in the 500 format, the pin out is limited, but, that in no way would prevent the size in regard to with or even hight ( if the designer so wishes ), be compromised.
the same cam be said for a master section.
their will be some very cool new stuff coming in this next year trust me: )~
the 500 format is just rocking on, i can not say just yet but their is much much more to come!

[tubemooley]

Pan - You and I may have to agree to disagree. There are limitations. Trust me. I have a lot of gear. You would be shocked by how much gear I have. But I'm not very interested into getting into a pissing match over who has more gear. I also build a lot of my own gear. Yes, the 500-series is very cool. If it weren't, I wouldn't be here. I was just trying to stimulate some thought and some discussion. DW.

[pan60]

not sure way we have to agree to disagree?
i thought we said about the same thing, with the exception i added their dose not have to be a compromise in well designed gear, no matter to format.
you can always grow more corn on a 100 acer farm then a one acer one
but that dose not mean the corn will be better or worse?
sometimes it depends on the variety of corn.
as far as who has the most gear, well i don't nor will i play the my thing is bigger then your thing game, just not going to happen.
it really dose not matter who has more, but i do have almost twice as much 19'' rack gear as i do 500 format ( maybe more 19'' gear ), again it means nothing.
so lets keep that out as it adds nothing to the topic.

i think both formats do have some given plus's as well as minus's.

acreage is defiantly a week point, gear has to be designed around only so much property, that dose not mean quality has to be sacrificed, it just means the designer cannot give more functions then their is room for.

some gear will always be better served in the 19'' rack arena.

voltage dose not have to be a issue as Great River, LaChapell, and others have shown the can get the voltage.
and yes it is not free, nothing is, but the API spec do allow for a adequate amount of current draw.
designers that can not design with in these given constraint would be better served just going with the 19'' rack system.


as far as a console the 15 pin card is the restriction, but as i say for console builds that 15 pin edge connector dose in no way have to be held to, at least in my thoughts.
you would be hard pressed to stay with the 15 pin edge connector and accomplish in the way of roughing.

anther week link is the fact that you will only have one power supply with the 500 format.
for this reason i always feel anyone into the format at some point should be looking at adding a spare power supply or lunchbox just for emergencies.

their are many plus and minus's and i am open for discussing the pros and cons of both.:eek:

[tubemooley]

OK. Cool. You're more tuned in to the technical issues than I had initially figured. DW.

[pan60]

OK. Cool. You're more tuned in to the technical issues than I had initially figured. DW.

i will take that as a compliment, :D have to take what i can get when i can :eek:

i would not call myself a Tech ( although i have dabbled a bit ), but i do try.

[rrraaalllfff]

I'm not a tech! :cool:
i guess if one is looking for more functionality or a more complete solution, something like Tonelux would make more sense. What with all the routing options and stuff. I don't believe the 500 series would or even should reach functionality like that cause that's not what it is. I'm not sure what's coming out next year, but some people do seem to be creative in designing different types of 500 gear. Like this one: http://www.alternatesoundings.fr/modual.html
i've never heard their gear but it sure looks interesting and certainly appears creative. Maybe 2009 will see more modules that are not pres or eqs or comps. I certainly do have high hopes for the format yet. I just got into it!:D
To me it looks like the future looks promising for the format in spite of its limitations. But, as i said, I'm no tech, so, maybe I'm not seeing something but that's my 0.5 cent

[pan60]

as well purple is doing some very cool stuff in the 500 frame and offer some routing function in the size, but different pin out, very cool!
and he has some other thing coming that will be awesome.
Pete's Place is doing the MARK VIII which of course i have been a bit involved with, and it will bring some very nice routing options to the table.
and i know of a few other projects i am not at liberty to mention.
remember the auxs, bussing, and faders do not necessarily have to conform to the 500 format, to achieve a nice modular console.

some cool stuff come!

P.S.
we really need to get the DIY forum going boss, i am planning on dragging as many of the engineers as we can get to help out when they can!
plus we already have some guys that are in the know!

[tubemooley]

I'm down wit dat. Get the DIY forum going. That would be great. DW.

[LunchBoxHero]

i have been travelling for a couple weeks, will get some new forums and the database updated when back in town tomorrow folks. Here comes the new DIY forum, as requested!:D

[pan60]

:eek:
:D:D:D

[Kronos147]

I think Pan is a moderator here so if he deems fit to remove this post I understand.

Pan and I have had several discussions about the VSI product line. We plan to release really, really soon the final versions of our 500 series mic preamps, and they will be pretty close to the original VSI M-1 concept (John Hardy asked we change the name, and it makes sense).

There is now the L-21 Spectrum, which is a slightly tweaked version of the M-1 prototypes with the UI output transformer (the only 500 series module that I know of to do so), and the L-22 Overtone which has the (more API like with some nickel) traditional EI output transformer for more color and grit for things like kick and snare and bass d.i. input.

VSI also makes some non-standard stuff and hence the understanding if Pan deems it necessary to delete this post.

The VSI engineers have very little patience for what I describe as marketing reality. *sigh* I have all of my 500 series racks with extra routings for the (API console provided) inserts and stereo links for some of the VSI prototype gear. That is really, really cool. They also have an additional voltage of 275v dc for tube gear. So, all of my racks are now non standard. I run API 512s and 550b's in it though despite that fact, along side my VSI prototype tube gear.

Pan suggested to me that VSI make our chassis and tube stuff deeper to prevent it from causing problems or questions with people regarding "the standard". He makes a good point, one that I made too, but a lot of people don't care about once they hear the VSI stuff. We have been selling pairs of units around LA and people have been putting them through their paces and installing other manufacturers gear with VSI techs around to see if anything smokes :p

A year after this discussion, it looks as if the VSI engineers are tooling to make the racks deeper.

Imagine a rack that looks like a 500 series, but is our (VSI's) "800 series" (500 + 300 v). Each slot is deeper, VSI was thinking about 1" deeper would be all it takes. An adapter card is installed to lift the 275v and shorten the slot for API (APR Alliance) standard gear.

VSI envisions MIDI control to be the next phase in the format, and the racks will probably be tooled up with midi jacks. There are like 8 pins left in VSI's world. This is another side topic of debate between Pan and I as VSI sees the edge card as being dual sided, as the API cards (325's, 550a's) were printed only on one side. The 275 v of the VSI concept exists on "the other side" right above the last 16 v rail.

If VSI does it, and our gear catches on the way API did (long term goal I would think), then maybe others will buy in. In the meantime, I think it would take a tidal wave to change the 500 series/VPR specification. So to the OP, I say just buy the gear in the rack if you like it. Buy the gear in the 500 format if you like it. Buy the gear you like, not the format. (I too think about checking out the x-rack concept from SSL just for recall-able EQ.)

Since Pan and I discussed the concept of deeper racks a year ago and it is finally moving forward, don't anyone hold your breath.

The other option would be to go the NEVE 1073/1084 format, like Wunder audio and Brent Averil did. That format seems to have a lot of room for growth. Larger face plates for more controls, deeper chassis for more components, class A power provided on the rail with (no need to convert on board like the MA5 or Great River) and wider format for bigger transformers for those who like the big EI's.

As the 'market savvy' engineers of VSI pointed out, the chassis are more expensive, the individual units are about twice the cost of a 500 series module and the format is not as popular as the 500 series. So, I think there will be 500 series, and proprietary (Neve, Tonlux, SSL, VSI) formats for a long time, and if all goes well, 'cross platform' 800 series will be the next jump.

[pan60]

no reason for me to delete anything Kronos147, i think we have throne some ideas around in our past chats, and in the end, maybe these will inevitably be something constructive: )~
glad to hear you you are making some progress! :D
you have my best wish!!!!

i am hoping we can get another modular format forum in here ( in addition to a DIY forum ), we could start offering info and help on many many modular systems.
although maybe not as popular as the 500 format their are other great systems out their!
i think these forums are in the works, but the Lunchbox Heros Boss also has a lot to do so i am not sure when we will see these but i think soon.

keep us posted Kronos147!

[LunchBoxHero]

Hi all! I hope all are having a joyous holiday season and are anticipating a musical and prosperous new year!

thanks Pan60 for responding so quick and indeed, we ("we" being the LBH maestros) are mid-studio construction - new facility - contractors, sheetrock, floating floors - some of you know the drill - it's been a little time consuming!

I agree with Pan, yes there is no need to delete threads that broach other formats and new ideas, all are welcome here. :)

I do anticipate having a bit of time in the next week or so between holidays to put a bit of admin time in, and the first order of business will be the "other modular formats" forum. Promise!

As you were!

LBH

[tubemooley]

This is very interesting. I like a lot of the ideas presented by Kronos. Let me think on this and get back to you guys. I already have a killer tube line amp circuit which I have mostly "ported" to a 500-series type of design. Yes, it does require a high-voltage B+ supply. The VSI +275vdc will work fine. Very, very interesting. Let's continue down this road. Thanks, DANA.

[danetate]

I recognize I'm dredging up an old thread here, but I am new here, and I was thinking about this very thing just the other day.

It occurred to me while looking upon a mastering equalizer that it is the size of a VPR rack - 3U high and with two channels of 5 bands each, there are basically 10 rows of controls. You could fill an entire VPR rack with 1-band parametric EQs and have the same functionality for the amount of real estate. Obviously the stand-alone unit would tie the bands together in a completely different way internally without all the balancing and unbalancing, etc.

So I think that the limited amount of space must be kept in perspective. Compare the controls and circuitry of the API 550b to that of an LA-2A.